Cunegonde, daughter of Ermentrude by unknown father, b. ca 890; m. (1) Wigeric, d. 919, Count in the Triergau, Count Palatine of Aachen; m. (2) ca. 920, Richwin, d. 923, Count of Verdun. [Ancestral Roots line 143-18]
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The following information was supplied by Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com (Note that Stewart Baldwin discounted the pedigree outlined below where Giselbert was 3rd husband of Cunegonde and father of Siegfried; among other reasons were that Reignar being husband of Ermentrude would account for many of the onomastic evidence; I have chosen to represent that relationship instead of a 3rd husband for Cunegonde):
Birth: ABT 890 in Aachen, Rheinland, Prussia
Not to flog a dead horse, but France did not exist at this time & "Rheinland, Prussia" did not exist until nearly 1,000 years later. Until 923, when Charles the Simple was deposed, it was part of thekingdom of the West Franks & after 923 it was part of the kingdom of the East Franks under Henry I of Saxony.
My notes (sorry, quite long) on Cunegonde/Kunegunde gdau of Louis II king of West Franks:
Enkelin von Kg Ludwig d Stammler [Ref: ES VI:127] (granddaughter of King Louis the Stammerer...Curt)
Kunigunde (dau. of Ermentrud dau. of Louis II) married twice - first before 910 to the count palatine Wigerich (d. before 919) and secondly in about 920 to Richwin (d.923) count of Verdun. A charter of Charles III of 911/15 to Wigerich (comes Widricus) names W's wife and one of his sons, Adelbero, whom the king says is his (the king's) nephew (nostri nepotis). [Ref: Richard Borthwick 28 Mar 1998]
To my knowledge, there is no documentary evidence for the identity of Kunigund's father. Reginar I, count of Hainaut (father of Giselbert, duke of Lorraine and son of another Giselbert), has been suggested as one possibility, apparently for onomastic reasons. (Kunigund had a grandson named Reginar, and a son named Giselbert.) [Ref: Stewart Baldwin 16 Mar 2002]
Kunigunde, who was married twice: first with the Pfalzgrafen Wigerich, count in the Bidgau (+ 916 or 918), in second with the count Richwin von Verdun (murdered 923). She is the foundress of two family trunks. [Ref: The controversy over the marriage of the count Otto von Hammerstein, A consequence-fraught church-political decline in discipline by Dr. Johannes Jacobi http://www.burg-hammerstein.de/pageID_746207.html]
Cunegonde, dau. of Ermentrude, herself a daughter of King Louis II (king of France) 9892, married 1) to Wigeric, count of the Palace of Charles III, + between 916 and 919; married 2) to Ricuin, countof Verdun. She had 7 children, 3 of whom were born to Wigeric, namely Adalbero, bishop of Metz, Liutgarde and Gozlin [Ref: Thierry Stasser 18 Nov 2002 citing: Michel Parisse, genealogie de la Maison d'Ardenne, in Publications de la section historique de l'Institut grand Ducal de Luxembourg, vol. 95, 1981, pp 17-40]
Research note: speculation flws:
A paper was brought to my attention that deals with Siegfried of Luxembourg and his origin. It's "Wer Waren die Eltern des Grafen Sigfrid? Eine neue Hypothese zum Ursprung des ersten Luxemburger Grafenhauses", by René Klein, published in Annuaire - A.L.G.H. - Jahrbuch 1998, page 8-27, with 14 geanlogical charts.
The author reflects on the earlier efforts to shed light on Siegfried's origins. Investigators like Depoin (1904, 1907), Kimpen (1954), Brière (1962), Haag (1963), Settipani (1994), Wolf (1994) andthe resulting consangineus (im-)possibilities. Then he turns to the known evidence regarding Siegfried and his kin.
With the identity of his mother as Kunigunde as a starting point he looks at the Latin terminology like "patruus", "germanus" and "frater and their classic and medieval meanings, and the evidence from the contemporary records. An evaluation of this leads to his conclusion that Kunigunde married 3 times:
1. Wigerich (c.907), with Adalbero, Gozlin and Liutgard as children,
2. Richwin + 923,
3. Giselbert + 939, duke of Lorraine 928-939.
For Giselbert it was his first marriage. This must have been in 923 or the following year. From this marriage Friedrich, Giselbert and Sigebert/Sigfrid must stem. In 929 Kunigunde must have died and king Heinrich I gave him his daughter Gerberga (just in the marriageble age) as wife. From this marriage came a son Heinrich and 2 or 3 daughters: Wiltrud, Alberada and possible Hedwig. Giselbert drowned in 939 and Geberga was married in the same year to the French Ludwig IV. [Ref: Hans Vogels 17 Apr 2003 message to Gen-Medieval] Note: Giselbert = ID 4575... Curt
What is the evidence put forward for this? It is not hard to guess that part of the argument will be onomastic (e.g., the presence of the name Giselbert among Siegfried's relations). However, even if you accept the presence of the name as indicating a relationship, that is certainly not enough to nail down any specific connection. What other evidence is advanced for the claim? [Ref: Stewart Baldwin]
Stewart,
René Klein mentions 5 consequences from this choice:
1. Onomastic. Its gives a good explanation for the names Giselbert in de next three generations (brother, son and grandson of Siegfried). The name Reginar for a son of Gozlin can be explained as following: Giselbert was the step-father of Gozlin so Giselberts own brother Reginar could therefore be the godfather of the stepgrandson.
2. The marriage between Friedrich (Siegfrieds brother) and Beatrix, the sister of Hugo Capet en Hedwig, sister of Geberga and Otto I becomes clear. Friedrich had met the princess at the French court because his stepmother Geberga married king Ludwig IV. And Friedrich was a relative of the said Ludwig IV by means of his mother Kunigunde, daughter of Irmentrud, daughter of Ludwig II, the grandfatherof Ludwig IV.
3. The relationship between empress Kunigunde, daughter of Siegfried, and empress Agnes, the wife of Heinrich III as "consanguineae" can be satisfyingly explained. Agnes was a daughter of Irmentrud, daughter of Alberade, daugther of duke Giselbert, the father of Siegfried.
4. It also sheds light on the reason why in 1017 at the marriage of Mathilde, descendant of Gozlin, with Reginar V of Hennegau, descendant of Reginar (+ 915), emperor Heinrich II the objections - of being too consanguineous - of bishop Gerhard of Cambrai did not check.
Renn (1941) tried to determine the consanguinity between them through Reginar, the aledged husband of Irmintrud and father of Kunigunde, but came to a forbidden 4th degree. He suspected that the emperors motives to stay silent were political.
In the hypothesis of Klein both marriage partners were just relatives in the 5th degree:
Duke Otto of Sachsen-Uda-Uda-Godfrid-Hermann-Mathilde x 1017
Duke Otto of Sachsen-Heinrich I-Hedwig-Hugo Capet-Hedwig-Reginar V x 1017
Heinrich II spoke out energeticly at the synod of Diedenhofen 1004/5 for a ban on marriages in the 3th and 4th degree and got his way. His suggestion to stick to the canonical 7 th degree as beingthe allowed degree of consanguity did not get through. The marriage of 1017 was of such a degree that he did not need to act.
5. After all those earlier attempts the mysterious adressing of Sigfrid as "imperatorius frater" has now been solved. Giselbert, Sigfrids father, had secondly married Geberga, the sister of Otto I.The children of this marriage were therefore the "stiefgeschwister" (halfbrother/sisters) of Sigfrid. He was thus a "stiefvetter" (stepcousin) of emperor Otto II. As we have seen before, that the meaning "vetter" (cousin) can be translated with "frater" (brother), and that often no difference was made, just like today, between halfbrothers and full brothers, the adressing of Sigfrid can be translated as imperial stepcousin. This thus explains why there is no mentioning of Sigfrid as a relative of the Ottonen (no actual kinship existed) and why nevertheless Sigfrid and his son Sigfrid stood ina special way to the Ottonen. Therefore Kunigunde could marry Heinrich II without any obstacles regarding Church Law.
One can argue that duke Giselbert could not marry Kunigunde. His grandfather Giselbert kidnapped and married in 846 a daughter of emperor Lothar I.
Ludwig I- Lothar I- N.N.x Giselbert-Reginar-Giselbert x Ludwig I-Karl-Ludwig II-Irmintrud-Kunigunde x
Against this objection one can point out that in the charters the father of Reginar never is mentioned by name. Furthermore it is not definitely decided if we have to accept Reginar (+ 876) or Giselbert, earl in the "pagus Masau", as grandfather of duke Giselbert. Others are against the association of the earl of the "pagus Masau" with Giselbert the kidnapper. If ever this can be proved, it still does not need to be an argument against my hypothesis.
The synode of Diedenhofen was in 1004/5 and Giselbert and Kunigunde were married around 924. As the synode spoke of abuses, the marriages in the 3th and 4th degree must have been more frequently asthe sources tell.
This according to René Klein. I hope my translation did justice to the text of the paper. [Ref: Hans Vogels 22 Apr 2003 message to Gen-Medieval]
In #3 of your post today, you stated concerning Agnes, wife of the Emperor Henry III, that
"The relationship between empress Kunigunde, daughter of Siegfried, and empress Agnes, the wife of Heinrich III as "consanguineae" can be satisfyingly explained. Agnes was a daughter of Irmentrud, daughter of Alberade, daugther of duke Giselbert, the father of Siegfried."
This construction conflates Agnes of Poitou, daughter of Guillaume V of Aquitaine and wife of Henry III, with her mother Agnes of the Franche-Comte, daughter of Otto-William of the Franche-Comte and Irmintrud/Ermentrude de Roucy. [Ref: John P. Ravilious 22 Apr 2003]
Research note: Kunigunde von Francia married (1) Wigeric von Aachen; married (2) Eberhard IV von Nordgau; married (3) Richwin de Verdun. [Ref: Utz 4 Jan 1999 citing: Royalty for Commoners & Weis AR7]Note: Eberhard IV was her son-in-law in most reliable sources (which RfC definitely is not)... my opinion only... Curt
Regards,
Curt
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To add a little data to Cunegonde/Kundegunde:
born: 890/895 [Ref: ES II:1] abt 870/90 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p126] abt 890 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p21, Weis AR7 143] abt 895 [Ref: Settipani Capet #7], mother: [Ref: ES II:1, Moriarty Plantagenet p21, 126, & 247, Settipani Capet #7, Weis AR7 143]
Research note 1: brother: Duke Gieselbert of Lotharingia [Ref: Donald Jackman 7 Dec 2000]
Research note 2: Citing Renn, it is stated that the father of Wigerich's wife Kunigund was probably Reginar of Hainaut (father of duke Giselbert of Lorraine), called a a "well-supported reconstruction" by Professor Jackman. He also makes an onomastic argument that Siegfried's (of Luxemburg, son of Cunigunde) wife Hadwige was a daughter of Giselbert of Lorraine. Now, since it is not reasonable to suppose that Siegfried and Hadwige were first cousins, it is impossible for both of the above reconstructions to be true if Siegfried was Kunigund's son... Although I still remain undecided about identity of Siegfried's father, the standard scenario that Siegfried was either a sbling or half-sibling of Wigerich's children seems well supported to me. [Ref: Stewart Baldwin 16 Mar 2002]
Research note 3: To my knowledge, there is no documentary evidence for the identity of Kunigund's father. Reginar I, count of Hainaut (father of Giselbert, duke of Lorraine and son of another Giselbert), has been suggested as one possibility, apparently for onomastic reasons. (Kunigund had a grandson named Reginar, and a son named Giselbert.) [Ref: Stewart Baldwin 16 Mar 2002]
married Wigeric: 907/909 [Ref: ES VI:127] before 910 [Ref: Moriarty p126] first marriage of Cunegunde [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p247, Settipani Capet #7, Weis AR7 143], names: [Ref: ES II:1, MoriartyPlantagenet p21]
married 2nd Richwin/Ricuin: about 920 [Ref: Weis AR7 #143] abt 920 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p21] second marriage of Cunegunde [Ref: ES VI:127, Moriarty Plantagenet p247]
died: after 930 [Ref: Settipani Capet #7] nach (after) 923 [Ref: ES VI:127]
Regards,
Curt. Cunegonde of France had person sources.
3,1,2